NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/3672

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From: Paul Chan <paul>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:13:56 GMT
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[e-mail] (Gary Alan Peake) wrote:

>Dean Stockwell? Man are you young ... :)  Subjective, constructive criticism
>isn't a problem for me. What IS a problem is the constant 'ha,ha,ha ... it
>isn't gonna sell' stuff. Maybe, just maybe if we give Amiga Technologies a
>chance, we will see some really neat stuff for the Amiga for the first time
>in years? BUT, if we all run outside and yell 'the sky is falling' we won't
>see squat! That's my problem with all the whining that's going on (from the
>same 2-3 people).

Well, at least it`s the same 2-3 people rather than 20-30,000 people. Like I
said, you need us or you`re out of a job (as the AT cheerleaders) ;)


>So you actually think that the way to success is to pawn the Amiga's off at
>a rediculously low price then gouge the customers with high program prices
>once they have the hardware? That is exactly why I'm still with the Amiga! I
>payed my money for the 3000, but I can do almost anything that a clone head
>can do with his expensive programs at about half the price in most cases and
>even for free in many cases! We get more PD/Shareware/Giftware/Mailware
>hard-core stuff for relatively nothing while the cloners pay BIG BUCKS to
>get the same stuff off the shelves. Compare FW4 to an equivalent clone
>program IN PRICE! No thanks ... I'll pay for the hardware just like I always
>have and dribble along with all the thousands of Aminet stuff and the
>inexpensive commercial stuff that I need and use.

I never said anything about high program prices. I was refrring to the strange
situation that sees Amiga users with VERY LITTLE choice in specific internet
providers who can cater for them. I for one could do without having to cut a
large percentage of possible companies out of the running for my choice of home
service provider simply because they don`t support the Amiga in any way. The
software can stay whatever price it likes.

As an aside, and this is no slur on the hardworking folks from Softwood, Digita
ec. - but I think I`d rather be paying Word prices for Word power. I can
certainly use the programs that are out now, but I need more power! (cue Tim
Allen "growl" ;)

>
>>>Amiga Technologies would also be ignorant to say today 'just wait a few
>>>months and the price will drop'. We all know what would happen.
>>
>>Yes, quite right, but at the moment, they will have to drop prices sooner or
>>leter, since their new price structure of the moment is becomeing rapidly
>>obvious. It seems that many people in the know are waiting for the price drop
>>anyway, and not many perople NOT in the know don`t know anyway due to ZERO
>>marketing, and no show in the showrooms.
>
>Amiga Technologies IS still trying to get enough computers to fill demand.
>They haven't even touched the edge of the barrell here in the NA continent!
>If you guys won't buy em, we certainly will snatch them up ... and quick!!

Well, there`s so much "demand" over here is the UK that AT have had to fire off
a load of UK staff and declare that about 1/2 of what they expected to sell
sold. In other words, try importing a UK A1200, we`ve got plenty!

Maybe you`ve got to live in the UK for a while to get the negative vibes coming
from the computer press over here about the Amiga. Over in the US it might be a
bit quiet, but you can`t really get away from an Amiga as an icon of the 89-92
years.


>>Economics, Something isn`t selling as expected at the price you set. What do
>>you do? Do you want to go for "double jeopardy" on that?
>
>OK ... two options on your 'scenario'. 1: Add something to the product to
>help it sell (Surfer) 2: Closely monitor demand and drop the price ONLY WHEN
>demand starts to drop at a significant level. #2 is presently out because
>Amiga Technologies still can't touch the demands they have here in the US.

1: Add something to make it sell, but hike up the prce accordingly. At an
estimated 600-700 UK pounds for an A1200 with a modem bolted on isn`t very
encouraging. I could rabbit on about getting a 486 to get net access, but
you`ve got a reply for that waiting, I guess ;)

2: Completely invalid here in the UK, we`ve got unsold A1200`s coming out of
our ears. They aren`t going to move with an even higher price tag and a "slow"
modem bolted on. And they certainly aren`t going to move when "Which" gets
their hands on the surfer pack and declares that IBM are ripping off UK users
by charging an hourly rate and piping their very limited number of UK pops
through the US before coming back to the UK - i.e. slow.


>Different strokes for different folks then. I went to my local Amiga dealer
>to buy a 2000 and walked out with a 3000 (at a considerable price
>difference). My second Amiga 'impulse' buy. Grandpa always said that 'if ya
>have to ask the price, boy, you either don't really NEED it or you don't
>really WANT it.'

Wise words indeed. If you apply that logic to the current state of the market
in the UK (i.e. look at the package, ignore the price for a second):

The A1200 looks outdated sat next to the Pentium running Magic Carpet 2. And in
the store next door, the Sony Playstation is wowing everybody with Tekken and
Wipeout. Sorry, in impulse terms, the Pentium and Playstation rates in front of
the dowdy looking Amiga. If you are still talking impulse buys without lookig
at price tags then case design has to come into this.

The Playstation looks gorgeous. Some Pentium cases look the business (mini
tower, nice solid design). The A1200 is an old, unattractive, plastic all in
one look. As I`ve said before, for the purpose of *not* driving away impulse
buyers, some innovative case design has to come in. I think I said before that
AT might ape the SGI look (without being sued). Imagine the impulse buyer
looking right pat the grey (but professional looking PC clones) and seeing the
indigo coloured mini-sgi style mini-tower case. That`s hooked their interest
before they`ve even seen the price tag. The original A500 looked better than
the ST, IMHO.

Next, the "attract mode" - the screen has to have some cool things running. In
early Amigas in was the bounce demo, and Shadow of the Beast, and a colour
workbench in some cases. Better than anything at the time. Now PCs are seen
running TV movies, 3D extravaganzas like Magic Carpet, and very colourful
familiar desktops like Windows or MacOS.

The Amiga is a box on the floor, maybe hooked up, running a plain looking KS
screen, if you`re lucky, or one of the magic pack games, which, to be brutally
honest, look like any Sega Megadrive/Genesis game. So it`s strike two for the
Amiga as far as impulse buyers go.

The third and most important thing is price & spec. I`ll bundle the two
together, because the buyers, if he is knowledgable enough, will weigh up the
merits of the features and price of one machine against that of another. At the
moment, no hard drive, no monitor, and crappy games, doesn`t really attract
when you compare with the similarly priced but ultimately better specced
Pentium sat next to it. Strike three.

To recap, the reasons why I think UK people bought the A500 in droves:

1. It was technically the best machine around. Even beat the (spit) ST.
2. Stuff like Shadow of the beast
3. The PC was nowhere near the high street
4. The PC was an EGA 286 - bag of crap compared with the A500.
5. Their mate had one.
6. Cool case design
7. Oh yeah, and you could PAINT on it! Deluxe Paint!

Price had little bearing back then, because it was simply the best, but I
waited until the A500 dropped to a more affordable level and made sure I got
one with WB/KS1.3 because I wanted an autobooting hard drive later (I got one 2
years later)


>
>>Then why did they take on AT UK staff only to fire them later. Not a very good
>>PR stunt to encourage optimisim in long-time Amiga enthusiasts is it?
>
>Well, they seemed to have kept Ed Goff on too? He made himself useful by
>getting them into ibm.net I feel sure. Maybe these guys didn't make

ibm.net is a mixed blessing for the UK. Limited numbers of PoPs (major cities
only, not much good for us out in the rolling moors), hourly charges - pretty
much useless against flat monthly rates charged by many UK service providers,
and a rumour that their service is piped vis the US! pretty much usely for UK
users, I`m afraid.

>themselves useful enough to keep around. When you play with the big boys,
>you play for keeps. Amiga Technologies/Escom has no room right now for
>'fancy hand shaking' and 'smiling at ya' crap. They are ass deep in getting
>a whole new company with a new OS, developer support, internet support,
>hardware R&D, out-sourcing parts and production, and software porting going
>on all at the same time ... with a record low number of employees and a
>record setting pace taking place!! Have you ever been involved in a new
>startup operation like this one? It takes guts, grit, and heart ... 24 hours
>a day, 7 days a week, 4 weeks a month! You rest when it's done ... about a

Well, the average consumer doesn`t care about the Amiga saga. Do you expect us
Amigans to buy an A1200 simply out of charity or for any sense of loyalty to
the company? I suspect that not even AT would want that.

>year or two down the road. Dave Haynie is the hardware Guru of all Guru's
>(IMHO) and I was sad that he wouldn't be in on the effort, but life moves
>on. That was his and their choice to make. I won't stop buying Amiga's
>because Dave isn't involved, but I think he would have given us a hardware
>ride to the Power Amiga world that would have been even more thrilling than
>the 3000 was in it's day!!! Another old saying here in Texas is that 'ya
>gotta dance with whoever brung ya'. That's Amiga Technologies right now.

So, you`ll be buying another Amiga then? Are you biting at the bit for an
A1200?

>
>
>>Yes, occasionally. I get/read over 18 magazines a month. Most of them Amiga,
>>some Internet, a couple of games mags (edge, and maybe an odd PSX title), and
>>several non-computing sport mags. And I don`t think the average PC user has
>>anything to fear until a PC mag starts to say, "Oh Sh*t, look at the Amiga xxx
>x
>>-it`s got a chipset as powerful as the Diamond Stealth 3D and 16-bit
>>Soundblaster, but only costs 299UK pounds, how the hell so they do that?"
>>
>>Usually, PC mags will dismiss other platforms, as does any single platform mag
>.
>
>Well, if you pay real close attention, the Amiga IS starting to get some
>mentions now and again. It's not time to do advertising. When production is
>at full capacity, and we have something new to advertise, then they should
>advertise!!

Look at the UK press. It`s Playstation and Pentium all the way. Throw in some
Saturn, and some U64, and maybe the Mac as well. The Amiga gets an honourable
mention in the Ex-computer hall-of-fame. And that`s what miffs me right off.


>>Well, us Brits are sick of the large profits from our privatised industries
>>(gas, water, electricity) going to fat, old chairman who get huge pay
>>bonuses/increases/retire with 1.5M+ UK pound payoffs /share option cash-ins)
>>when the bills for the customer keep going up, and the service gets worse.
>
>Ah, so now you aren't getting the service you expected from Amiga
>Technologies either? Have you called them about it yet? Emailed them maybe?
>And I'd bet that Petro only wishes he had a million dollar parachute waiting
>for him right now!!  :)

No I haven`t called them, and to be quite frank, AT haven`t done anything for
me to directly complain about. I might have considered getting an A1200 for my
brother, who is currently using my old B2000HD, but the price has scred me off.
Lke your grandad said, if you`re worried about the price then you don`t really
need it. But AT lost another possible sale from me due to the price tag. I hope
Petro gets his payday. And I also hope it`s because the Amiga is a success.

>
>>Thousand HAVEN`T. Remember that AT haven`t reached their target. Fallen rather
>>short, as I seem to remember - now which reasons could you attribute to that
>>fact? Is it: PRICE? MARKETING? SPEC? DISTRIBUTION? ESCOM SALES STAFF? THE ESCO
>M
>>PC? MICROSOFT?
>
>Maybe production? We still have no reliable supplies here in the States yet?

We have too many in the UK :(


>>But the Amiga woud have been acceptable at just 100 UK pounds less for many
>>people. OK there are R&D costs required, but don`t take it out on AGA buyers.
>>I don`t want to have to go into the myriad reasons why it would have been
>>better to have a lower price - not least when you go into an Escom shop and
>>start to compare price/spec, with a helpful unbiased salesman to help you with
>>your PC purcase ;)
>
>Maybe YOU should re-educate the lads then? Remind them of the emulation
>abilities, the inexpensive nature of our software in comparison, the
>inexpensive nature of our OS upgrades (roms and all vs 'clone cd in a box'
>upgrades). Sound that isn't an add-on card.

It`s NOT my job Gary. Besides, try getting your views over to the braindead
Escom staff... I`ll bet that they laugh at the sight of A1200s in their shop.
It isn`t the same as the zero coverage that the Amiga gets in the US. The UK
view of the A1200 is a negative one - not helped by augmentation from Escom
staff and bad press from everybody else.

>
>>Well, now the production boost is over, and AT are left with thousands of
>>unsold machines which will now become "surfers". Not very nice, is it? And wil
>l
>>the A1200Plus kill off sales of the A1200? Not likely as I believe that it
>>won`t displace the A1200, it`ll be positioned ABOVE the A1200 in the mid-range
>>:(.
>>Yet more low sales in the UK AT, I hope you`re happy :(.
>
>What? First the old 1200's will now become 'Surfers' and then they are being
>left unsold? Make up my mind ...

Those surfers might shift, but at the prices I mentioned earlier, I doubt it.
6-700 UK pounds is digging deep into well-equipped 486 territory. And if anyone
walks into an Escom showroom in the UK, I`ll bet that the slimy salesgit will
smarm their way over to the 486s instead...

>
>
>>Again, I have to ask, why did they hire them in the first place? Because they
>>expected the sales they were projecting, not just half. I don`t know the real
>>reason that most of AT UK were fired, but I bet it`s just more cost cutting on
>>their behalf. AT are desperate not to go into the red, aren`t they?
>
>I would have kept them on to suck their knowledge base dry IF THERE WAS ONE
>that would be beneficial to my company. Then, they either produce or walk
>the plank ... modern business 101 here in the States I'm afraid.

They could have hired a few hotshot business/marketing graduates who had owned
Amigas for years, and actually didn`t have a cynical view of the UK market in
the later days (like I believe the C=UK staff had) - not that I`m griping, in
any way ;)

>
>>>How many times will we go thru this? First, everyone here is appalled that
>>>Amiga Technologies will NOT sell Amiga's thru Escom stores. Then, we are
>>>appalled that the Escom people don't know anything about the Amiga, yet may
>>>be selling them. You and Eric can't have it BOTH ways!!!
>>
>>No, but the customer wins, and walks out of the Escom shop with a PC. Are you
>>happy? Why else are we going on about this and that? We are reporting things a
>s
>>we see them, in my case, I go into my local Escom store every weekend and
>>despair. What experience do you have of Amiga stores at the moment?
>
>See my diatrab about Amiga Technologies and the NA continent. I will get my
>chance at a later date. Seems that Amiga Technologies finds the European
>market easier to keep sells going in at the moment. See, I am NOT happy
>about the US specifically and the NA continent generally being left out
>right now, but I DO understand why (from a business standpoint) and will
>dodder along until it's our time.

But, to be quite frank, the US is 3,000 miles away from where the REAL action
is. Your views are borne of a US isolation to the real-world event that have
transpired here in the UK and Germany that has seen many Amigans drift away and
a negative press build up against the static/once dead Amiga. I hate to say it,
but try living here in the UK for a while and get a real view of everybody`s
opinion of the Amiga.


>>No problem. I`ll just keep on going with my A4000 thanks. And I`ll pre-empt
>>your Mystic Megging by predicting a sales disaster for the Surfer pack by Xmas
>>96 if it has a March UK price of 600-700 UK pounds. Exactly the price of the
>>CDTV upon it`s quiet release...
>
>Well, here's a Mystic Meg for ya! Amiga Technologies announces a new PPC
>Amiga that outperforms anything else on the market ... CEBit 1997!!!

By which time you forget that Pentium 120s will be 1/2 their current price and
becoming the base PC (top end being a P6). Windows 96 will have been out and
will be more solid (supposedly) - and AT`s gamble on high prices may well not
pay out. You are looking too far into the future - the real battle is the Xmas
of 96.

>
>>But the price of the PPC will be critical (as with everything else) upon it`s
>>release. The A1200 is a disaster (just thought I`d slip that in to make sure
>>everyone understands ;).
>
>I don't really think the price of the PPC will be that important (give or
>take a few hundred US dollars). IF Dr Kittel gets his initial wish of
>keeping the OS as user-friendly and easy to operate as we have become
>accustomed with the same style of 'custom graphics' that we have come to
>enjoy that works inside a PPC environment ... then the clones be damned!!!
>Nothing will touch what we will have!! Can you even imagine someone buying a
>computer that needs all that ram just for an OS if they have a choice of an
>Amiga with a much smaller footprint, just as fast or even faster (because of
>less overhead), and custom graphics right out of the box? Sheee-it, Son!!
>We'll be in tall cotton that even the cotton-pickers can't reach!!

OK, I hate to say this, but that`s speculation that Dr K will deny totally.
Look to the A1200Plus for an indicator of the true success of the Amiga in the
short term. I`d love to get a PPC machine, but I`ll wait and see what the
A1200Plus is made of first...

>Yep, 43 and still getting out of bed EVERY morning!! I'm not a 'yes man'. I
>am one excited individual at what a few rash programmers and a couple of
>weird hardware guru's could do if they were turned loose with the Amiga and
>told 'make the pulse beat so hard that it blows arteries'!! Are you
>listening Olaf and PhaseV????  :)

Well, maybe you`re a bit too old to understand the cool advertising that
*should* be accompanying the Amiga then? ;)


>>Hey I`m going to recommend the COMPUTER which is best for my friends when they
>>ask me what they should get instead of their little A500, or Spectrum, or Sega
>,
>>or whatever. At the moment, the Amiga isn`t very high on that list.
>
>So you're going to continue driving your Amiga while suggesting to all your
>friends that they'd be better off buying a clone? Makes you look rather dumb
>doesn't it? No insinuations meant. I'd just feel stupid telling all my
>friends that I was dumb and put all this time and money into an inferior
>product.

I justify myself by saying that I`m happy with my Amiga, but I`ve spent enough
to buy a well equipped Pentium 133 system on my A4000 and periphery alone. My
friends need a cheap machine to do their work on. I won`t recommend an A1200
out of the box (it needs expansions worth a total of 600 UK pounds to make it
usable). I`ll qualify my previous statements before this one by saying there
isn`t truly a machine that fits the bill of for "true beginners" - unless it`s
a Macintosh. And they are too expensive again (over 1000UK pounds for what I
consider to be a decent setup).

I`ve only ever recommended a computer to one person who actually went out and
bought one. He was a bit broke and only had a few hundred quid (this was just
before the re-introduction of the Amiga, which I ruled out immediately anyway
as I knew the price). The Mac (my choice for him) was just too expensive (he
needed a printer, and Mac printers are a bit pricey). The Amiga wasn`t out, but
I wouldn`t have recommended one (he was a total beginner, so I didn`t think he
could deal with Workbench and swapping disks). He eventually went for an Escom
PC on a hire puchase deal. Ironically, we used PCs at university and he`s
reasonably comfortable with them.

He`s happy with his purchase (only a 486/66) but I`m mad at not being able to
recommend the Amiga on grounds of price. Had it been cheaper, faster (for
rasterising printouts), come with a hard drive, and some decent software
(Wordworth and Final Writer need a couple more revisions before I have the
features I want), I would have happily recommended an Amiga. I only hope I can
recommend the A1200Plus.

>
>>Call it doom and gloom if you like. It`s definately NOT fanaticism, unless som
>e
>>Garys we could mention ;)
>
>Why don't you put all that negative energy into something useful? See my
>tag!   :)

But I am! I`m showing AT the error of their ways in the hope that they have
created the Amiga A1200Plus in the spirit of the A500...
 ;)